Jordan Turk  0:00  

What if we could demystify starting a law firm? What if hanging your own shingle didn't require us to fly solo, blind into the abyss that is law firm management? Could we make the unknown known? Starting a law firm, to me, always seemed like some sort of huge, monumental, unknowable risk. But plenty of us do it, and plenty of us succeed. I want to start my law firm off on the right foot. And I also want to know the secret sauce to founding a successful law firm. And frankly, I want to avoid failure at all costs. That's exactly why I started this series. Welcome to Hacking Law Firm Success with me your host, Jordan Turk. If you are a lawyer looking to grow your practice, or you want some insight into how other attorneys run their firms, you've come to the right place. For each interview in this series, I'll be sitting down with a different law firm founder from across the country to discuss their secrets to success, as well as the obstacles and maybe some cringe worthy moments that they have had to overcome in starting their firms. From foundation to legal technology to firm culture. We cover it all. Thanks for joining, and I hope this series helps empower you to set up your law firm for success.

Hello, and welcome to Hacking Law Firm Success. I'm your host, Jordan Turk and I am here with founder, mentor (that's a personal thing for me) Taylor Toombs Imel of Toombs Imel & Associates. Hi, Taylor.

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Taylor Toombs Imel  1:22  

Hi, Jordan. Thanks for having me. ‍

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Jordan Turk  1:24  

Yeah, this is weird, but really cool thing because actually, Taylor was the one that hired me when I was just a mere baby lawyer or baby attorney, baby law, I don't practice baby law. When I was a New York baby attorney, Taylor took me under her wing, and hired me and believed in me. So, this is super cool to see the kind of the growth and the transformation that you've gone through now. Because you are now right, your own firm founder.

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Taylor Toombs Imel 1:49  
I am just starting this year, which is really exciting. And it's been a great, you know, eight and a half months so far. And I think that the horizon is only going to get brighter.

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Jordan Turk  2:02  
Well, let's talk more about your firm right now. So, if we're talking about Toombs Imel and Associates, what type of law do you practice?

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Taylor Toombs Imel  2:08  

Exclusively family law, family law. Now within that we do do both trial litigation, mediation and appellate work. So, we also do premarital and post marital agreements, which basically means we help you before, during and after litigation.

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Jordan Turk  2:24  

And then you're located in Houston, Texas?

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Taylor Toombs Imel  2:27  

Well, we actually have two locations. So we have one in Houston in post oak area right near the Galleria. And then we also have one in Richmond, Texas to serve as our Fort Bend County client.

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Jordan Turk  2:39  

Fort Bend – I miss it. How many employees do you think you have right now? Or do you know that you have... why did I say I think?

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Taylor Toombs Imel  2:45  

There there are seven of us total. We are looking to expand. We were just actually talking about that yesterday. So, growth is always a good thing, just making sure that you do it organically and not too soon. And so, there's a lot, a lot that goes into that.

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Jordan Turk  3:04  

I mean, how so? I think about me and my anxiety that I have if I were to ever open up my own firm or be responsible for other employees and things like that and be responsible for if you know, their families eat? I mean, was there any hesitation or concern when you were thinking about opening your own office and you're now going to have all these employees and you know, were you not just absolutely freaked out every day?

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Taylor Toombs Imel  3:28  

I wasn't freaked out every day. But I mean, of course, there's nerves. And of course, there are situations that you're second guessing whether you want to do it or not. I mean, I came from a firm that I’d been with for nine years and grew with my partner over there and had immense respect and loyalty. And I just, you know, so there was, there were a lot of differing emotions, between staying where you’re currently or moving on to something that, you know, that I've wanted to do for a very long time. So that was that was a push, there was a push and pull there, then also financially and figuring out how you do that. How do you, how do you break apart from where you've been for nine years? And how do you fund all that? You know, and a huge part of doing that was applying for and securing an SBA loan.

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Jordan Turk  4:21  

Well, let's back it up a little bit to so as, a. 'Cause you're still a practicing family law attorney, and you have a heavy docket and heavy caseload. What does a typical day look like for you when you're actually working as an attorney, but you're also this firm founder and you're the managing partner of your firm?

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Taylor Toombs Imel 4:39  

I mean, well, I mean, a typical day, I mean, most of my focus is on my clients for sure. I mean, I've got great staff that, you know, handles a lot of the day to day for me. I have an amazing office manager, Dayna Smith, who really takes care of the nitty gritty and the accounting. But there's, every part of my day is dealt with you know, I have to deal with marketing; I have to deal with looking at numbers and making sure that we're on track for the end of the year and where we're going to be and can we grow right now. So there's always things during my day where I get pulled in one direction or another. Again, the great thing is I have an amazing team. So when I get pulled in a direction of doing more managerial things, they can pick up the slack on client matters and things that can that just, you know, need to be done on a daily basis.

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Jordan Turk  5:29  

Well, speaking of your staff, is there anything that you think that you do, maybe differently or that you place prominence on when it comes to firm culture or staff retention, things like that?

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Taylor Toombs Imel  5:39  

Transparency, I think that's a huge thing. I know that it's something that I valued, and something that I always wanted in terms of my practice. And so and, honestly, I mean, with Smokeball, you're the one who got me into it. And the platform really provides the ability to give that transparency to every single person in the firm, especially your associates who are trying to also build names for themselves and build up their practices and want to know what their originations are, what their collections are, and being able to allow them to have a system where they can go and login. And, you know, really real time billing and collecting is, I think, a huge part of creating trust and loyalty amongst your team members.

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Jordan Turk  6:27  

I do think too, we're kind of moving away. It used to be that I think law firm management was a black box, right? And they would tell you, here's your salary, here's kind of a bonus structure, but you don't really know how it works. You know, it's kind of hard to really calculate your numbers and what your bonuses are going to be. And I do think that was the predominant, you know, feeling for law firms up until maybe I would say four or five years ago. And I think I'm seeing, because I've talked to law firm manager managers all the time. And I think I'm seeing this, move away from that. And now it is about transparency, because how else do you retain staff? You know, if it is just yeah, if it is just going to be this proprietary black box that nobody knows how it works, or where your money goes,or how much money actually goes to the house, And things like that, yeah, it's going to be hard for you to say, Oh, I'll stick around here when you know that you can make more money elsewhere. So, I'm seeing this everywhere. And I love that you're saying that. Because yeah, I think transparency is such a huge, huge deal now, especially right now.

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Taylor Toombs Imel  7:26  

Yeah, and I mean, with transparency also comes, you know, allowing others to have a say, an opinion, in how the firm is going to grow and how we're going to operate. You know, this is my first rodeo in going out and starting my own business. So, I'm learning just as much as they are every single day, and having their opinions from previous places that they have worked, for things that do work and don't work. I think it's a valuable part of being a good leader being able to listen to the people under you and take those opinions and being able to use them to make your organization better.

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Jordan Turk  8:03  

I love that. Well, talking about how your firm grew. So let's and I know that you Smokeball, but what types of technology that you use? Is there anything that you use in addition to Smokeball, or you really just - Smokeball's, your one stop shop kind of a deal.

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Taylor Toombs Imel  8:16  

I mean, Smokeball's our one stop shop in terms of our document management, and you know, billing. And I mean, really, we do kind of everything with it. And what's great about it is it talks to QuickBooks, which is you know, from an accounting perspective, is what is needed for taxes. And so, I mean, it really does speak to all these other programs. Within QuickBooks. We also use and I'm forgetting what the system's called, but it's a filing system. So we pay an extra, I think it's not very much, but an extra subscription to be able to have documents. So, when we file a pleading with the court, it will automatically get saved into our client matter with…

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Jordan Turk

Infotrack.

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Taylor Toombs Imel

Yes. So people aren't having to go back onto the district clerk's website, pull down that file marked copy, which you know, where I previously was, there were these lag times between getting that done because paralegals and legal assistants are getting pulled in every single direction and on multiple different cases. And it's easy to forget, hey, I filed this document, I need to go and pull it down. And then when I'm preparing for a hearing, I'm getting upset because I don't have file marked copy. InfoTrack has created this system to where I don't have to worry about that anymore. It's also great because I can, you know, sync with Outlook and sending emails and so I can automatically save emails into Smokeball, which is huge, in terms of CYA's and just being able to see, you know, what, if anything, I've talked with the client about in previous conversations and allows me to bring that back up and say, hey, we talked about this, we talked about that, and very easily provide that information. Other than that, we, you know, use basic Microsoft Office, we have West law. So, we have West law, subscriptions. So, but Smokeball is our main source for technology, for sure.

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Jordan Turk  10:18  

I would say the bane of my existence was saving down emails, I really hated it. And because how you know, the system used to work. If I would have to go in, I'd have to retitle it and save down each one, individually. And it would drive me absolutely nuts. So, when I came to Smokeball, and I was like, oh my God, I wish we would have had this because it would have made my life a whole lot easier.

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Taylor Toombs Imel  10:39  

Absolutely. And you know, if you were somebody like me, I mean, if it was gonna take extra time, I just wasn't going to do it. I was gonna go and search Outlook if I needed something later on. Um, you know, but the problem is, is look - if you accidentally send something to archives, if you delete it, you know, it's gone and you can't really go and get it back. And so, I mean, absent certain circumstances, but I mean, it makes it so easy with just going down clicking at the bottom and I mean, it takes no time whatsoever, which is really wonderful.

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Jordan Turk  11:06  

I do remember you being the biggest offender of saving documents on your desktop, and not into the system.

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Taylor Toombs Imel  11:13  

I mean, to be fair, so I do still use OneDrive. And I do still save my, I'll save my drafts and stuff in there. I will go back at the end of the week, and I will upload it to Smokeball. But I don't know why I do that I just do, I think it's a habit. And it makes it easier for me. I guess if I'm on my Mac at home, or I don't have to log into Smokeball and go and pull it down, I can at least just access it on my OneDrive, which it makes it really easy.

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Jordan Turk  11:42  

I do think that this is a little bit of growth from you, though.

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Taylor Toombs Imel  11:46  

It is growth. It is growth for me. But you know, when you have a system that makes it so streamlined and easy, and doesn't take much of your time, I think that growth becomes very, very easy.

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Jordan Turk  11:58  

Yeah. And I do I mean, not to be a complete shill for my employer, but I really do feel like Smokeball does pay for itself, when you really start getting into it. Because I remember, you know prior firm, we would use eight or nine different pieces of technology kind of to just get through our day, whether it's you know, Egnyte, and Net Documents and Practice Master and Tabs Three and all this stuff. And so we'd use so many different pieces of technology. And it was almost like I didn't know what I didn't know. So I didn't even know that things like Smokeball or practice management software's like even existed. I just thought we're cutting edge. We're using a little this and so I really do, I think back on that I think oh my god, this would have made my life so much easier.

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Taylor Toombs Imel  12:39  

Careful, I'm having PTSD flashbacks to crazy technology that I didn't like in the first place. Um, but ya know, I think, to have a one stop shop that pretty much does everything for you and speaks to all the systems that you have to have in running a law firm, like Outlook, like Microsoft Office, like Adobe, is really just a godsend. For starting out with your own practice, I cannot tell you how easy it has made the transition having a system like Smokeball.

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Jordan Turk  13:11  

Well, talking more about growth too... are there any kind of specific strategies that you've used to either grow your client base or your revenue?

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Taylor Toombs Imel  13:19  

I mean, client base has been, I mean, that's been a, you know, a long-term goal. So I mean, I think when you were talking about increasing originations and increasing your, your footprint, you know, it's not something that's going to happen overnight. You know, it's getting in front of people, going to happy hours and social events, sponsoring different organizations like the HBA or ABA or even just, you know, local charities, you know, around the Houston area, because you get to meet so many different people and you get to talk about what you do. And they get to, you know, have a one-on-one conversation with you. Simply doing marketing and, you know, social media ads, I mean, those are great things, but they're not going to get you that long-term… they're not going to let you reach that long term goal. It’s really growing the client base. So in terms of that, that's been something I've been doing for you know, years of just being able to build that up. Now, it’s more supplementing and then figuring out ways that my associates can also have that same kind of access. And so, whatever they need or want in terms of marketing, I mean to the extent that I can provide, and I'm going to, but getting them involved in local organizations. I’m going to . . . there's a group called business and brews which is really fantastic. It happens about once a month, maybe sometimes twice a month, and you go to a local brewery and you meet a bunch of different people.

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Jordan Turk  14:48  

Oh, that's my type of thing. Yeah.

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Taylor Toombs Imel  14:50  

Yeah, in business and you know, it's three to five o'clock on a Friday and then it's a great time to just end the week and pass around some business cards. And you never know. I mean, especially with something like family law and divorce - somebody has a friend or a family member, or somebody they know that's getting divorced or about to go through a divorce and needs assistance. And so, there's not really . . .the sky's the limit in terms of who your referral base is going to be.

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Jordan Turk  15:22  

What do you think is your biggest referral base right now?

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Taylor Toombs Imel  15:26  

Former clients, and then other attorneys. I mean, at this point in my career, that's where it comes from. I get a lot from other from other attorneys in other fields of law - criminal, civil, you know, business litigation, you name it, trusts and estates, that's where a lot of it comes from. But then former clients who have been satisfied with my services, will, you know, recommend their friends to me. And that's the best referral that you could possibly have, as somebody that you have actually helped, and that you've worked with, who feels that you did such a good job, they want to tell their friends and family about you.

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Jordan Turk  16:02  

And I do feel it happened with you quite often, from my recollection, where it would be an opposing counsel, actually, that you had the case like a prior case, and they'd recommend you.

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Taylor Toombs Imel  16:12  

I've had that and opposing parties. That's the biggest… that's the biggest compliment is having somebody that you beat up on a little bit, say, hey, you know, maybe I should have had her as an attorney instead. So, I'm gonna send my friends and family there. Maybe those don't happen nearly as much as well. They happen more often than I think that they would. But it is funny when you see them come across your screen and come through that conflict check.

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Jordan Turk  16:40  

Yeah, I loved it. Well, as far as growing your revenue, so I know that you say that you check the numbers all the time. Is there anything specific that you think you do that? Maybe others don't? Or are you constantly monitoring things and figuring out what you can do better? How you can get leaner.

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Taylor Toombs Imel  16:56  

Yeah, I mean, you know, one of the things that I implemented when we first started out, as I always felt that sending clients bills at the end of every month after there had been, you know, 30 days of billing was not,was not something that most clients liked, and something that let them understand, you know, what work was being done on their case, and, you know, how much of their retainer was being drawn down. I thought that that was a poor use, and a lot of clients, you know, it took them a while to pay those bills. So, one thing I implemented when we first began was that we billed twice a month. So, we bill on the 15th. And at the end of every single month, it's within our fee agreement. And I found that clients really do pay more like clockwork when that has occurred. I mean, I think that I look at what our billing versus collections is, and what that percentage is on a, you know, maybe not every single day, but it's certainly on a weekly basis. And we are around 95%, which is huge.

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Jordan Turk  17:59  

That is non-existent.

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Taylor Toombs Imel  18:04  

Really wonderful.  Smokeball has been really helpful for that as well. When we have bills go out through Smokeball, they can automatically - even on their phone - they can take a picture of, of a link, and they can open the QR code, and they can go straight to LawPay, which also works with Smokeball. And they can pay securely through that. So, I mean, it's instantaneous ability to pay that bill, which I think if you can do anything that streamlines something that makes it simple for your client, especially when they're going through something that's as traumatic as a divorce or some sort of custody proceeding, anything that you can do to make their lives easier,they are going to take advantage of it. And so, we've had a lot of positive response from that. But that has made a huge difference in increasing our revenue.

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Jordan Turk  18:56  

Also, when you bill twice a month, I imagine that it forces your staff to input their hours, you know, more than once a month, which is what a lot of firms do. And if you're not tracking your hours every day or every week, you know, sometimes you're trying to recreate time, from three weeks ago. What happened at 12pm on Tuesday, two weeks ago, kind of a deal and you lose money.

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Taylor Toombs Imel  19:16  

Exactly. And then you know, you can also I mean, within Smokeball, you can have it running in the background, and it can actually log your time. So, you don't actually forget about the things that you did. So, that's a really positive thing. And then all of this goes back to transparency when you allow your staff to be able to look at what are my numbers in real time. And how is like this affecting my bottom line. They're going to be motivated to input their time and they are going to be motivated to go and collect on those fees from their clients. Transparency really does increase revenue. I mean it's amazing how much of a difference it has made in terms of our ability to collect and to collect often.

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Jordan Turk  20:00  

Well, then let's switch gears a little bit and go to challenges. So, what types of challenges have you really faced in opening your office and founding your firm?

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Taylor Toombs Imel  20:09  

Look, I mean, you know, when you leave another firm, and they're, you know, there's obviously hurt feelings, you know, there's loss of relationships, you know, which is certainly not something that I ever wanted, but I think was something that somewhat was expected. But it's not ideal. And this, you know, the network that you had, for a long period of time, and that you spent so much time fostering and, you know, sort of ceases to exist. That's, that's a difficult transition in terms of, not only from business forum, but from a personal standpoint, as well. And also, just being pulled in those different directions and understanding that my role has changed significantly. And that, you know, the buck, and everything that happens in this office, stops with me. I don't have any other partners right now. To, you know, shoulder that burden, it's all on me. I mean, not even just that - it was doing billing, billing clients and staying on top of cases, and then also dealing with a build out of an office space. That, you know, it's difficult because you have to manage your time and then and then figure out, how am I going to manage time at home as well. I'm single mom and have an eight-year-old son and want to spend time with him. And so, there's a lot of push and pull in all different directions. And that's constantly happening. And figuring out how to manage your time and to do it - well, that's a huge challenge.

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Jordan Turk  21:46  

I'm excited to ask this question now. And then maybe when I re-interview you a couple of years in the future, but right now, how do you define success?

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Taylor Toombs Imel  21:57  

I mean, that's a loaded question. And something that I honestly think about each day. I mean, what I would say is that, in terms of my business, you know, success would be each year improving upon our prior year. This year, we're beyond where I expected that we would be in terms of where we will be at the end of the year, which is huge. You know, you always think that during your first year, there's going to be this lag and, you know, a decrease in what you think your revenue is going to be. And that just didn't happen this year. Having, and I think having an environment where everybody is happy to come to work, is motivated to come to work, and to be able to foster that for other people. Because it's something that I always had in my career. I think that that's a huge part of being successful - inbeing able to promote others, and to help them build their careers, just as other people helped me do. That's my goal. And obviously, I want to grow and expand and do all those things. But I can be successful without that.

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Jordan Turk  23:09  

You know, and I spoke to another attorney, because you said something about, you know, we're not we're, you know, as far as like forecasting, for where you want to be, you know, at the end of your fiscal year and things like that. I do feel like a lot of attorneys do not do that. It's almost like goal setting for your office, right? And I think a lot of firms or a lot of managing partners are just happy when they're making money, but they don't actually have any revenue goals, or you know, billable versus collection goals and things like that, or percentage goals. And I think it's so important, because we set goals in our personal life, right, but not so much for our businesses. We're just happy that we're there and keeping afloat and making money. But I do think talking to you, and then talking to another attorney in Houston, who was actually on our show prior, Megan, I think it's very, very important that you actually forecast out to figure out what you're probably hopefully going to make this year.

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Taylor Toombs Imel 23:59  

I mean, absolutely. I mean, if you don't forecast out, if you're not looking at where you want to be, at the end of the year, or in five years from now, you know, then what are you working towards? How are you? I'm a true believer that if you're not growing, you're dying. I mean, that's probably a little too black and white for what I actually mean. But essentially, that's what I mean. If you're not working towards something, trying to grow, and all you're doing is maintaining, I don't think that you'll maintain. I think that you will die off after few years if that is what you were doing.I think to, and to really make a difference in people's lives, you've got to be constantly changing. And growth doesn't mean just getting bigger. It also means changing and changing with the times and figuring out, you know, what are the new laws and how am I going to incorporate this into my my business model and be able to help people because that's really why we're here. I mean, that's what we're here to do. I mean, of course, obviously, a goal is to make money. But at the same timz,e I got into family law because my parents got divorced after 32 years in marriage. And I saw how difficult that situation was. And I thought I was in a unique position to be able to help people going through similar situations. And so, in that, I don't think I would be able to deal with the drama and the hurt and the pain that happens during this process, without having that empathy and understanding and being able to come and having that . . . being able to come and work and really enjoy what I do. I've talked with so many family law attorneys that, in especially later on their careers, they get so jaded and really don't like what they're what they're doing, but they continue to do it to put food on the table. That's not how I approach family law. I enjoy it. I enjoy meeting every single PNC that walks through my door and having the unique issues and figuring out, you know, creative solutions for really, really complicated and emotionally charged problems.

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Jordan Turk  26:08  

I will say this - it was there's no better exercise for your brain, because every day was so different. And you got to work on a plethora of things, whether it's a brief or you're going for a temporary orders hearing, or you're preparing for mediation. Right? Every day is completely different. And I did feel that at the end of every day working with you and working at our own firm, which is fabulous. But every day I felt mentally exhausted, but the good type of mentally exhausted, where I feel like I got to exercise my brain that day. And I used it to Oh, no, I'm good for now. Like, hey, it's mobile. And being able to pick and choose my family law cases has been the best decision of my life. Let me tell you, it's wonderful, highly recommend, legal technology is great. But I do want to end on just asking you, if we're looking at the future,a nd then we're also looking at people who maybe are trying to start their own firms are wondering about it, and if they can do it, you know, how do I even start? I really wanted to say or ask, What do you think has made your firm successful? And what advice could you give to others?

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Taylor Toombs Imel  27:17  

You know, first, you have to have a real willingness to go and do it and to take that risk and step out and be able to deal with the stressors of taking that risk. I think a lot of people aren't. So, once you get over that initial hurdle, a huge part of my success has been the support of family and friends, and then other colleagues within the legal community. It's amazing how you know, once you reach out, once you tell people what you are going to be doing, how much support comes out of the woodwork from places that you wouldn't possibly imagine. You know, just asking advice of family members led to people, you know, offering to gift me money and helping me be able to start this practice. It was also you know, a friend of mine who also works in the legal industry, And who’d done marketing for us previously. And I was just having a conversation with her, really about her and what her goals were, and she was talking about, hey, my boyfriend is a loan officer at a bank and does SBA loans - what do you think, I'm thinking about, like, figuring out ways that I can connect people that do that, and, you know, who do you think I should be reaching out to? And it turned into, hey, I'm interested. And, and so you'd have these, these strange and weird connections that you never thought would happen, then they lead to something really great and beautiful. I think, once you start the process, and once you get over that initial fear of going on your own, if you will be open and honest with the, you know, your support group around you, you will find that there are a lot of people that are willing to help and can help you and throughout that process. And there are a lot of options out there, especially for women business owners. I mean, the SBA loan is a huge one and there are far fewer women that are applying for those types of loans because they don't realize that they have, they have the ability to do that or they have the access to do it. And, it is a lot of work. Don't get me wrong. There is, There are a lot of hoops to jump through. There's a lot of paperwork that you have to sign and that, you have to you know, that you have to give to the loan officers and, and you are personally guaranteeing that loan. So, there is a part of it that you have to be, you have to trust yourself enough that hey, I know that I'm going to be successful and what I'm going to do and I'm willing to, you know, put money on the line and put assets on the line in order to do that. Again, there are resources out there for women who want to start their business, men too. But women in particular, because the percentage of them that apply for SBA, SBA loans, I think somebody told me at some point was less than 10%. And so, you know, understanding that those resources exist, and that you can use them in order to build what you want, I think is really important. Also, do be very mindful about how you grow and what you decide to do. Don't bite off more than you can chew. You want to start your own business, you know, you can do it out of your house, you can do it with going and subleasing space. It doesn't have to be a big huge endeavor. You can start small and then build, build from there. I, you know, it's scary, but it's doable. And a lot of people have done it that way. I mean, Microsoft started out of a garage. So, there are ways of doing this, and ways to grow and to build organically, without, you know, without undermining what you're trying to do.

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Jordan Turk  31:08  

Yeah. Well, Taylor, this has been fabulous. I just want to thank you again. This is Taylor Imel, Managing Partner and Founder of Toombs Imel and Associates, and thank you so much for being on here today.

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Taylor Toombs Imel  31:21  

Thank you, Jordan. Thank you for introducing me to Smokeball.

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Jordan Turk  31:24  

Anytime.